Bill, The sad thing is I live in an apartment building, and unfortunately we have individuals who complain about Christmas wreaths and other holiday decorations on other people's doors. They go as far as to report it to the manager. One idiot even threatened to sue the owners of the building (with of course, the ACLU). That is why we were forced by management to take down our decorations off our doors and only keep them in our apartments. We never had any issues like in the past up until last year. In fact our community room was always decorated with display from all the holidays (Christmas, Hannukah, and Kwanza). Ever since the whole situation with people "suing" to take down religious and other displays blew out of proportion, now our holiday fun events are now being stopped.

Just because someone threatens to sue doesn't mean the law is on their side, or that the ACLU will back them. Your apartment building manager can set what rules they like regarding decorations in the common area. They could allow religious/holiday decorations if they wanted to. It's private property. It's unfortunate that those people complained when they had no right to do so, and that the management caved in. I am against socialized religion (i.e. government-sponsored religious favoritism), but I am also not a fan of being overly political correct, as the Governor is and those residents were.

Bill in this case the law is on the side of the people complaining these decorations are on display in a comon area and they can sue. The residents can have all the decorations they want inside their apartments but not outside. If i live in an apartment accross from a jewish family and decide to put a swastika on my door the family has every right to as management to have it removed and if they dont they can be sued. If someone in an apartment building finds the Christmas decorations offensive the can demand they be removed.

Robert: This is not true. The Establishment Clause only prohibits the *government* from showing favoritism for one religion. Private property owners can put up whatever religious displays they want (subject to zoning ordinances: no 10-story blinking crosses like someone else mentioned. You can't put up a 10-story cross in your yard but then again you can't put up a 10-story anything in your yard.)

Bill not if you are talking about rental property the landlord has to insure that his tenants do not have to endure something they truely find offensive.

Where does it say this?

This is why everyone runs scared. Not whether they win or loose the lawsuit, it's all about the money it costs to defend it.

It is so bad that people are now challenging these issues to so they can claim victory even if they are wron because of the money it costs to defend. But the ACLU and my buddy Steve will do it for every low life who has a problem with anything..

It's all about the press now and not worth it...

Joe, I wrote this because I support seeing the Christmas and other holiday displays everywhere. I am actually angered at the fact the Governor called the Christmas tree a "holiday tree". I am also angered that people want to take down our decorations just because they don't celebrate our holidays. I also have the same theory, which is if someone does not like to see the decorations, they should just "not look".
Basically what I am saying is that "Keep the Nativity and the other holiday scenes". Also, just add other holidays scenes to it, so that everyone can be happy and we actually have more to look at. I am a Catholic myself and celebrate Christmas (and have my decorations up after Halloween). I also live in an apartment building, and hate it when people complain about my decorations because it is not "their beliefs". It is so sad how our world is becoming less tolerant and this whole thing is affecting something like decorations.

I agree Maya.

Somehow our society has evolved from one encouraging freedom of religion, to one requiring freedom from religion.

you could also say, Joe, that we have evolved from a country with freedom of religion (which is a fallacy to begin with, regardless of what our laws say) to one which requires others to have religion. And the backlash is that those who have no religion, or a different belief system are just now trying to reclaim their rights as granted by the constitutiion. When one of the main arguments against Barrack Obama is that he is not Christian enough (or as some say, not a Christian at all), there is a big problem with religious freedom in the country. what is happening over the past decade, is that atheists and other non-believers are finally getting a voice, even though there is still significant persecution. Many out-of-the-closet atheists still will not reveal it to their neighbors for fear of harassment and reprisals (I have seen this first hand here in Tiverton).

First, What the heck does someone calling Obama "not a Christian" have to do with a discussion on Christmas light display in Cranston????

Atheists can believe in nothing as they wish. I'm okay with that. In spite of the fact that they represent an insignificant minority of people in the U.S., they are protected by the constitution to believe in nothing.

The problem comes with the militant attitudes of many atheists and their intolerance of anyone else's right to believe in what they want to beleive in and their opposition to the freedom to express their belief in the public square.
...

A few years ago in Somerset the town set up a Nativity, a Menorah, a Christmas tree, santa and some other secular decorations and the local Christian Churches in town ask the town to take it down. They felt that if it remained that the pagans and witches might want to add a penticle to it. The Christian Churches would rather have no display of their religion then to allow the pagans to be able to display their religious symbols. Hows that for freedom of religion?

Cranston - an insignificant minority would be what, 5%? 10% 15% - census figures have shown that those who identify as atheists rank around 5%, add in agnostics and it is around 14% - African Americans rank at 12% - so, are black people an insignificant minority too? Gay people roughly 5%, another insignificant minority?

And yes, the fact that people are trying to use Obama's religion, non-religion, or "not enough" religion as a club to beat him down speaks VOLUMES about religious freedom and rights in this country.

"Militant attitudes" yes, some have them. But far far more Christians are militant. The so called "militant" atheists do not even hold a candle to the hundreds and thousands of DEATH THREATS Jessica Alquist received. Militant atheists are a problem for atheists for sure, where was the condemnation for the harassment and threats against a 16 year old girl? There was none. So yes, preach that atheists and militant and hateful. And then look at your Christian neighbors and see who is worse (can you look with an objective eye? I doubt it)

Well said Dan

That is exactly what the ACLU did. They did not even take him seriously (thank god). Many of us we so upset.

That’s right. The religion part of the first amendment reads:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”

And I’m pretty sure there aren’t any laws doing that. The amendment doesn’t say government/congress can’t display/observe religions. It just says they just can’t make a law saying that we citizens have to.

This absolutely not true. The government cannot force you to believe in any religion, true, but this falls under the Free Exercise Clause of the 1st Amendment, not the Establishment Clause. The Establishment Clause prohibits the government from showing favoritism towards any religion over any other: the government must treat people of all faiths equally. This, however, does not mean that the government has to pretend that religion doesn't exist (as, yes, some over-zealous atheists may want). The government can make reference to religion in a cultural or historical context (as I described in my previous comment on this article).

We do have freedom of and freedom from religion in this country as one cannot exist without the other. We have freedom from being forced to worship against our will and we have freedom from a government that even *suggests* to us what the "proper" religion is.

TAMORI: All government actions must derive from some authority in law. The First Amendment applies to the state via the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment (in law this phenomenon is called "incorporation.")

The state of Rhode Island could not put out a banner on government property that said "Jesus is the reason for the season!" because there is no law in existence that could possibly allow them to do so.

They could however Bill put out a banner saying.

"Jesus is the reason for the for the Holiday of Christmas" signed by President Grant in 1871 if I remember right.

It after all would merely be an informational banner on a Government law ;-}

Forgot to add due to the fact it is named after "Jesus Christ". Just saying ;-}

BRAVO Joyce !!!!! You hit the nail on the head.

BRAVO!!! Well said Joyce!

Freedom of religion requires freedom from religion. You can't have the former without the latter.

I respectfully disagree, Robin Lionheart. Our entire system of civil rights is built upon tolerance for difference.

@Kimberly And tolerance for difference is why freedom not to belong to a religion is so fundamental.

I agree entirely. When you consider the original reason and intent of the establishment clause, all this flap over Chritmas Trees seems laughable.

Exactly Tiverton Dad.

Kerri,
The Constitution does not say the govt can’t celebrate a religious holiday. It does say the govt can’t force religion upon the citizens. And just setting a nativity scene or “Christmas” tree on govt property is hardly “forcing” religion on anyone. And you might say that govt property is to be used as a majority of the citizens see fit. Just like if a majority wants a certain person in office; or wants a certain law.

TAMORI: The government is *severely* limited in how it can use its property regarding religious displays. The government could not put out, for example, a banner saying "Christianity is the official religion of Rhode Island," even if a majority of citizens wanted it there. The government cannot show preference for one religion over another.

The people do not get to vote on constitutional provisions. It is nothing at all like voting for an elected official. Please read the Constitution and the relevant 1st Amendment case law (I recommend most strongly Lynch v. Donnelly — both the Opinion of the Court and Justice O'Connor's concurrence— and Allegheny County v. ACLU).

Tanori you seem to think you are living in a democracy where the majority rules you are not the United States is a Republic where the minority is protected from the majority . The Constution does say that the govt can’t celebrate a religious holiday the SCOTUS has already ruled on this. The Holiday of Christmas is secular the Holyday of Christmas is religious. If you put Jesus into the holiday then that holiday then becomes unconstutional and would have to be abolished. If you have a holiday tree thats ok but if you have a Christmas tree that represents the Holyday the Constution would not allow that.

What is the minority being protected from? Nothing is being “forced” on them. Where does it say the government can’t celebrate a religious holiday? The constitution only says government can’t force a religion upon us. Again, simply displaying something isn’t ‘forcing’ at all.

Tamori,
While displaying something may not be "forcing" a religion on us, it does, at the very least imply support thereof. Do you really want government in the supporting religion business?

THe government does observe several "Christian" hoidays, as evidenced by the national holidays observed on those dates. Why make it go one step further and use public monies to put up decorations?

Keep your government out of my religion and I will keep my religion out of your government. The minority is being protected from you. You want everyones money spent on your Christian holiday decorations. This is exactly why we are a republic and not mob rule (Democracy). Allowing these displays is the first step towards a non-secular government.

"hedge or wall of Separation between the Garden of the Church and the Wilderness of the world" Roger Williams

Tamori the SCOUS has said that the govt can not put religious displays on public property and they are the only opinion that counts. When everybody on here says you have to call it a christmas tree they are forcing their religious opinion on me. I never cease to be amazed at the arrogance of the Christians you steal all the pagan religious holidays and symbols then try to tell us pagans what they should be called. Start your own holiday traditions and stop stealing ours. It is not a Christmas tree and never was and sorry to burst your bubble but Jesus is not the reason for the season. Let’s get something straight, we love Jesus. Love His style. Love His message. Love how He loves! When we hear things like ‘Jesus is the Reason for the Season’, our educated self screams at the stupidity! Let us clarify our position. Jesus is a great guy and everything but by no means does he monopolize December. For Christians, December means Christmas and the celebration of the birth of Christ.
. .

For Jews, December is the time of the Festival of Lights, or Hanukkah, where they celebrate the rededication of the Temple in Jerusalem for 8 days. Muslims sometimes celebrate the Islamic New Year in December depending on the day it falls. Buddhists have Boddhi Day which celebrates the day that the Buddha attained enlightenment. African Americans celebrate Kwanzaa which celebrates universal African American heritage and culture. Pagans have long celebrated Yule and the Winter Solstice around the 21st of the month. So, by saying only Merry Christmas, we are completely ignoring, disenfranchising and disrespecting the faith and priorities of others. Now, that does not sound like Jesus Christ, does it?

All of the arguments are stupid, near sighted, exclusive and bigoted. This is a time of sharing for all faiths and to pretend that your celebration is more important than that of others is downright….unChristian. Jesus would be on our side on this one. Jesus brought people together and did not encourage us to build walls to separate us. Jesus doesn’t need your fury, activism or violence but requires all of us to love one another. And besides, Jesus celebrated Hanukkah and never wished anyone a Merry Christmas.

It would not violate any open meetings law. It's a ceremony, not a meeting of a government body. Not that I agree with the Governor's cowardly actions.

Sorry I was just kinda joking on the opem meeting hense the ;-}.

Then again it was a public function for the public to attend. If we had teleporters which sadly have not come to fruition in our time yet. Hmm maybe we could hire Studio 38 to work on that. I hear the EDC still spends money like water.

lol, good idea Bill, however I hear the crane cost a $100,000 so the would have to float another bond issue. Not that I would put that past politicians in this state lol.

Chaffee's embarassment in 15 minutes on Fox Bill O'reielly boy getting 34% of the vote sure doesn't get you what it use to I guess lol

Debbie,
The SCOTUS has rules several times that "Freedom of Religion" is, in fact, "Freedom from Religion". The State (Government) has no business being in religion.

None of the Christians want the Government to mandate birth control coverage for their employees, but you do want government sponsorship of displays? How does that work?

The United States is NOT a Christian nation. It IS a secular Republic.

The forefathers did not print 'In God We Trust' on currency. That was the result of the successful efforts of the National Reform Association, an extreme right-wing group that also wanted to insert 'Jesus Christ' into the Preamble of the Constitution and return America to the religious blood-letting days of colonialism. What you cite is a theocratic encroachment, something James Madison (father of the US Constitution) adamantly expressed opposition to.

Celebrate your religious beliefs all you want to, Debbie. NOBODY is stopping you! Just don't do it on government property! It's so simple.

no regr...
Assuming this is a stand alone response not connected to mine (evident by the reply button not being used in that box)..RI has about one million fifty thousand and is 48X37 miles. It's rare that what happens in one town drectly affects ALL others. You can always draw a family circle path on how "Jeffy" gets home and make a maze saying "Look, it connects"..I guess in that vane we must be related to fish too.
http://www.50states.com/facts/rdisl.htm
http://www.dimensionsinfo.com/what-is-the-size-of-rhode-island/

Points are Leave ri is that we are smaller than most citiees with a million people. Even more if you take out the 25% that is water fromm the bay. Most of the State is 20 miles across in the north and less in the south were the bay is as far as population.

This is the reason I say what happens in one town always effects the town all over the State. Have seen this happen for almost 60 years in my life time anyway.

The recent population number show people fleeing this State also and we are now close to 950,000 last time I checked the estimates. Not to mention number 2 in the Country as worse run State in the Country last week in this week in the Wall Street Journal.

If I remember right you are not a resident (nothing wrong with that) and should be glad you no longer are lol. It has been down hill for well over half a century with no end in site it seems of corruption and criminal activity by our politicians through out the State. Think we still rate in the top 5 in the country on that last year.

There are solutions, but not with one party rule and the minorty with no power at all to have meaningfull change and debate as the powers that be do not care. We are under tyranny more than any type of freedom here. Roger Williams spins in his grave I am sure sadly.

no regr..
I am a resident. I work in another state. Still have a house in RI and come home every few weeks or my wife visits me out of state every few weeks. It's my kids and their families that have left already (three families)...waiting my time and still paying taxes there...have one foot out the door waiting for offer for my wife to get the out of state job too..

No prob seemed to remember you talking about being in another time zone ;-}.

Hope you make it out, because it is nuts here. Wish I could pick up and flee also lol.

And for many years, it was thought that Catholics should not be President because of his/her allegiance to the Pope. And African-Americans were good property. What's your point? Nothing should change? We should not try to be more aware of other's opinions and beliefs? If you have a problem with the law of the land, you have an option. Leave.

The duration in which something is allowed to transgress the US constitution has no bearing on its permissibility. Would you have supported slavery due to its protracted existence? The purpose of a constitutional republic is not to allow for majority rule, but to temper majority rule in favor of minority rights (ie, stopping two wolves and a lamb from voting on what's for lunch). Government is mandated to respect the wishes of the few when it comes to protecting the equal rights of conscience - which is only achieved with absolute government neutrality and non-preferentialism. Do you disagree? If so, I've seldom ever found a Christian supremacist who can pass the 'hypocrisy test' and say they also support the same latitude being afforded to Islam.

Ahhh...the old love it or leave it. Haven't heard that one in awhile. Slavery would have brought down the republic. A Christmas tree will not.

While a "Christmas" tree may not bring down the Republic, it is a sympton of a larger problem and conversely, a slippery slope. Don't impose your religious views on others. That will bring down the Republic.
You want a Christmas tree? Put it in your living room, that is your right and no one is trying to stop you. Not at our state house.

none joe. this is out of hand when the majority is ruled by the minority it political correctness gone mad along with tyranny.

The best thing to do is call the tree in the living room a holiday tree simply because so many different traditions have used it as a way to motivate people to get out of their funk during the dark days of the year. Giving gifts you made to loved ones was also a tradition long before Jesus lay in the manager. For centuries a gift was something you took the time to make to give to someone. Today we go out and buy gifts and take the price tags off. The reason we take the price tags off is because we don't want the person receiving the gift to realize how much the item cost because price isn't supposed to matter when it comes to the holidays. It's also a way to 'pretend' we made the gift and therefore there is no price.

Getting drunk and stoned was a holiday tradition celebrated well before the first Christian lifted a glass of wine. People in the Northern parts of Europe ate psychedelic mushrooms and brewed them in batches of special holiday liquor. We don't hear much about this tradition because it doesn't fit into the wholesome, family oriented spirit of the season that Christianity celebrates now.

Most people are unaware of why we celebrate the season. They think it's all about Christmas and it's not. It's an ancient devotion held during the dark days of winter to bring back the light. Evergreen trees are used because to people living in the Black Forest the trees represented life and rebirth. And sure enough, right after the winter solstice the days started getting brighter. Whatever they did worked and for that they were grateful.

Everyone I know, and whom I have known in the past, who put an evergreen tree in their livingroom during the Christmas season, put the trees up as part of a tradition of celebrating Christmas. I do not know anyone who put it up as some sort of pagan ritual. I do not know anyone who put it up a tree to celebrate the life of the Nordic God of Thunder.

Robert E comes from a fanasy land, another dimension of reality, where DJ's provide him with the meaning of life, where evergreen trees are used for various other purposes.

But here in the real world, The reality in which sane people live, in the United States, in the year of our Lord 2012, millions and millions of families every year put up a Christmas Tree, as part of a long lived tradition, to celebrate Christmas, the birth of Jesus Christ.

And we are happy doing that.

And we enjoy the celebration with family and friends.

And we worship our Lord, and find peace in that.

And poor RobertE.... he can only live in his fantasy world, bitter that others find happiness in these traditions. I pity him for his sadness, with no friends, with no faith, .... with no Christmas.

Poor Robert. Let us pray for him.

I've never seen a" Holiday Tree Farm" . Maybe they exist in Lala Land.

Cranston Resident If your Christian faith is threatened every time someone says "Happy Holidays," well, then, you don't have a very strong faith at all. I Feel sorry for you you must have a very small circle of frends there are a lot more pagans in this area then you realize and the numbers are growing every year. Take some time to meet other people and you may be surprised Don't bother to pray for me I am doing just ffine and if you want to celebrate your religion in your own home and church that is fine with me just keep it out of public properity. I have plenty of frends of all faiths and am very secure in my own faith the faith of my ancestors not all of us turned our backs on the old gods. Have a Happy Yule amd Blessed Be.

A good, clean living Pagan died and went to Heaven. St Peter met him at the door. "You can't
come in" he said. The Pagan asked why "You're Pagan, sorry. But Hell isn't so bad. Yer friends
are there and they say it's cool" The Pagan is depressed but goes anyway because he was,well,
Pagan. So he goes to hell and is greeted by a beautiful green field with people picnicing and
having a great time. A man in a white comes to him and presents himself as Satan. "Wow"
thinks the pagan, "Hell ain't so bad" Suddenly, the sky gets black and fire spews from the
ground. A screaming flaming man falls from the sky and is swallowed by a crack in the earth.
After he disappears, everything returns to normal. "What was that?," the pagan asks Satan.
Satan replies "That was a Christian. They wouldn't have hell any other way"

Joe-Here's some ideas on what to call the tree:

1. Jethro Tree
2. Jethro60 Tree
3. Notorious Tree
4. Crimeboss Tree
5. Bikerhd1998 Tree

I somewhat agree. You can celebrate it anyway you want, call it whatever you want, on YOUR property. Not on OUR property.

I'm no fan of Chaffee, but dropping the word "Christmas" is the only logical thing to do.

@OldTownie - I made a suggestion that as long as Chafee is still governor, they should skip the holidays and keep the statehouse dark. Turn off the dome lights as well. I did find it interesting that the mayor of Fall River invited RI'ers to come to FR for their Christmas Tree lighting.

We don't call it a Hanukkah Lamp we call it what it is a Menorah so don't call it a Xmas tree but call it what it is a Fur Tree.

Then it should be a fir tree. Not a holiday tree.

It is a fir tree until it gets decorated with tinsel and lights. Then it becomes a Christmas tree. If it were decorated with shamrocks and lepricons it would be a st. Patrick's day tree. Pumpkins witches and ghosts. A Halloween tree. Eggs bunnies and chickens. An Easter tree. Flags and red white and blue bunting. A 4th of July tree. How the tree is decorated determines what kind of tree we call it. The one in the state house is decorated to be a Christmas tree. If it is against the law to have a Christmas tree in the state house then it should be taken down because a Christmas tree is what it is.

RobertE,

Not one person in this entire blog has said they would never want you to share
yours with them.

In fact I would be very interested in exactly what your religion is.

Please share.

Joe,
First off, Robert E is right. Most of the "Christmas" holiday you love is taken from pagan rituals.

As a Christian, I for the most part agree with him. My religion belongs in my heart and my house, the the State house. The only intolerance I see is that of so-called Christians demanding that their religion be front and center.

I seem to remember something about false idols.....what was that all about?

J.

Many Christians, believe that our religion should extend beyond the confines of our heart and our home. That it should also extend into our community and into the fabric of our society. Thus the "free exercise" clause of the constitution.

Not only should those values be brought into the State House (God knows our state legislators could use some of those values) , but also into the White House and Congress where they also have a "Christmas Tree" on display to celebrate Christmas.

Joe I get angry and intolerant when Christians try to force their religious beliefs on me. If you want to practice your religion in your church or on your property I have no problem with it and in fact encourage it. Religion can be a wonderful thing but when you try to force it on others that is when I get militant. You want me to be tolerant of Christian beliefs when you refuse to accept the fact that you are not the only one celebrating a religious holiday at this time and use the same symbols the you claim as uniquely yor own when they are not. so you tell me when have the christians ever been known to be tolerant look back at yor christian history and you will see throughout it's short history either towed the party line or you were put to death. Christians have never been known for their tolerance even for other christians.
Happy holidays!

Joe,
See, that's the problem. "Values". Yours? Those of your religion? What scale are you going to use to judge which values you want, which ones are important? You can not legislate morality or values. You really want government to be the "keeper" of our shared value code? No thanks.

What many Christians believe is not germain to the the discussion. Your example of the "free exercise" clause is looking through the wrong end of the binoculars. Warren wrote that a law violated the exercise clause only when it "unduly burdens the practice of religion". Not allowing "Christmas" decorations on public land, in no way, burdens anyone's free practice of their faith.

J.

And allowing Christmas decorations on public land is no voilation of any constitutional provisions if done properly.

Nor does the display of Christmas decorations constitute a forcing of religion on anyone.

Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas Support NK and Joe The Plumber

holy moly, I agree with Joe. Because, for me, that is exactly it.

100 percent agreed!!

http://dc.about.com/od/hoildaysseasonalevents/a/ChristmasTree.htm

Thank you for sharing Joe the Plumber and English first. I think the National Christmas Tree is a very beautiful display.

Hahahahahahaha..Excellent!

Awesome and cute video. :) Thank you Kim for sharing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0D6tL42lHg

St. Nicholas, Bishop of Myra may not be pagan but Christmas is!

There is no Ramadan symbol because it is not Ramadan. That was back in August. Why would there be a Ramadan symbol now?

Christ's birthday was in the fall but you see Christmas symbols all over the place.

Suzanne
Ramadan is period of fasting for about 29 to 31 days in the June/July time frame. I've been invited to two Eid feasts. There is no Holiday symbol for it. It's closest comparison would be a cross between a Catholic Good Friday and lent for a month as far as eating restrictions/fasting.

@ Leave RI, yes sorry my dates are off. My point really was to point out some symbolic item representative of the Muslim people which my friend noted was amiss from the table.

Well, Robert, it may not matter to you what the constitution says but it certainly does matter to me.

@Suzanne..you were close for this year I think it went into August. As far as symbols you get the crescent moon and that's about it. I know their Mosques had nothing in them save for a picture of the local Imam at the entrance and maybe some colorful bunting etc.

There are no Muslim symbols. It is unislamic to have symbols. That is why they are destroying the shrines in Africa and the Middle East. Even the Muslim shrines. It is also unislamic to depict Mohammad in anyway.

Thank you Suzanne,
I want to thank you for sharing your experience with us. You are correct that we all deserve a place at the table, not just one or the other. Plus, I also love how you explained that your son's school has an open table with most religious holiday items on it. Being Rhode Island we have many people with differing backgrounds.Even in some communities where they may not have many of one diverse background or another, we still should acknowledege them anyway. Thank you again for your input. Hope your son and his school have an amazing concert.

Thank you Kim. I feel that part of diversity is not "hiding" or changing the name of a symbol to please others. It does not help. I feel that when we display all of the displays for all diverse backgrounds, we must use the correct name for whatever the symbol it is. Part of these displays should be educational and to learn and accept the many differing diverse background we have in this world. If we showed them to our children, and if they ask, we need to tell them the proper name, whether it be a "Christmas tree" or channukah Menorah.

Maya it's not a Channukah Menorah it's just a Menorah. A Menorah is a Temple lamp.

It is church and state (not versus). As far as offensiveness, it is the society that dictates what is considered offensive. If the government is going to go beyond religious symbols to dictate offensiveness based on a complainer then I am here to complain about Gangnam style and Carly Rae Jepson. What does it even mean. So if a tree is offensive to a tree hater is the tree the "offender". It sounds stoopit cuz it is stoopit.
Let's go after the real offenders. Fat people wearing yoga pants in public. Grown men wearing jean shorts that are ankle length etc. Know what I mean?

http://forum.baby-gaga.com/about1570476.html

There is nothing in the constitution about separation of church and state. What it says is, "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Katherine.
correct..that is the wording. I think English First was refering to what the author wrote referring to the Constitution ..."Unfortunately, there is the law of "Church vs. State." ..it was referenced incorrectly..when it's referenced in writing or conversation it's .."the seperation of Church and State"

The phrase separation of church and state comes from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802. That phrase has been used by the Supreme Court, but it is not anywhere in the constitution. It is used all the time by people who actually think that is what the constitution says. I hear it from people who are supposed to be highly educated and it just isn't there. Just a little pet peeve I have. No sense talking about it really because people will go on saying it whether it is there or not.

It doesn't matter what the wording says or what you or I may think what matters is what the SCOTUS says and they have said church and state can't mix.

Correct again Katherine.

Jefferson said "wall of separation between Church and State". No mention of vs. You might also look at his "Bill for Religious Freedom".

As to the SCOTUS using his letters, How else would a court determine what the Founding Fathers meant. The 1st Amendment is ambiguous at best. That being said, isn't the display of one religions "idols" nothing more than the implied support of said religion? If the state didn't support the religion, why would they put the idols up in the first place?

Therefore, "implied" support is not allowed under the 1st Amendment.

Katherine,
If you want to talk about pet peeves, try this one. Your right about the Constitution not mentioning religion and separation. But there is a reason for that. Mainly because it is mentioned in another document called, wait for it, the "Bill of Rights". The constitution was ratified on Sept. 25 1789, the Bill of Rights, which includes the 1st Amendment, was ratified on Dec. 15, 1791. Two seperate documents. And if you actually read the Constitution, you would know that we do not want to follow it literally, with all that 3/5ths garbage (Art 1, Sec. 2, Cl. 3) and the only white, male landowners voting stuff.

Old townie...the bill of rights does not mention separation of church and state either.

Katherine,
Yes, it actually does. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,". Now play along here. If you can't make laws supporting a religion, and you can't make laws prohibiting a religion, then you are seperated from religion. See how that works? No pro, no con, therefore, you are to stay out of it. This is the difference between reading and comprehending.

Laws, (including the Constitution and the Bill of Rights) are interpreted by the Judicial branch of government. And this matter has been looked at many times sice the 1860's. The Supreme Court has taken a hands off (Government hands) off of religion for the most part. That is the law. End of discussion.

Constitutional literalists usually pick and choose the portions of our Constitution that they want taken literally. If you want to take the Constitution as written then you must throw out the Bill of Rights, as it was meant to be changes to the original document.

It has been allowed by the SCOTUS because they ruled it had historical significance, not because it was accepted by most.

Our Founding Fathers also owned slaves. What's your point?

Thus spaketh The Second Publius:

-- That, ladies and gentlemen, is why we have anonymous bloggers on Patch.

Oh, and 'Publius the 2nd' can be looked up in the White Pages?

Pound with anonymity..love it..keep it up..your right to do it!

whew!

I hope you're okay.....

When you understand the context, that quote is a non sequitur to this discussion.

It has to do with being ostentatiously religious in an empty way,
just to try to look impressive.
It's not directly related to various kinds of holiday displays and whether or not they belong on public land or in public view, and why or why not
(a discussion well worth having. Thank you for the article, Maya!)

Also, since you brought it up,
you can't take that quote out of context, because several pages later, we get:
"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.
Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl.
Instead they put it on a stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.
In the same way, let your light shine before men,
that they may see your good deeds, and praise your Father in heaven."
(Matthew 5:15-16)

The message is complex, and is not
"don't be religious where anyone can see you!"

.

There is no such thing as good speech or bad speech. Your thinking intent.

That is true Old Townie. Personally, I love freedom of speech (which is why I am glad to be able to post my opinions here on the Patch). However, even with freedom of sppech, I have to be careful about what i say because it could be used against me. That is the part of freedom of sppech that i feel is bad, the part where I could be "sued" for having an opinion. That is what i meant to say. BTW, I would never sue anyone for having an opinion. I actually appreciate it.

Maya the point that you and most of the Christians are missing is that it is the Christians that change the name. The pagans have been using the tree for thousands of years before the Christians and still do but in the past couple of hundred years that they have been using the tree they incist that those of us that have been using the tree for thousands of years now call it a Christmas tree when in fact it is a Yule Tree.

Although to most people the Christmas tree is fondly thought of as a symbol of Christmas, it's no stranger to controversy. In 1851 the pastor of a Cleveland church was condemned for engaging in a pagan practice by decorating a Christmas tree! Puritans actually banned Christmas in New England, and the Roman Catholic Church regarded the Christmas tree as a protestant custom until they realized its spread was beyond their control. Oliver Cromwell preached against decorating Christmas trees on such a "sacred event" as Christmas. And even today some Christian groups, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, are against the use of the Christmas tree. The holiday you celebrate as Christmas has always been pagan and all we are asking is that you respect our religion and be willing to share the holiday and not keep trying to force Christmas on us.

Robert E. I would say if you are celebrating the Pagan way then you do it with a live tree as they have always done for the winter solstice. (cutting a tree down would be sacrilege to them far as I know). The Puritan’s were driven to extinction for their intolerance of (freedom of religion). They refused to Evolve as most religions have from those draconian days.

“A protestant custom”; probably some validity to that since Martin Luther who started Protestant Lutheran’s was German. The Germans have a long history of Christmas tree’s. There are many sects of the Christian Religion and “Jehovah's Witnesses” do not celebrate Christmas at all. Least the ones I know do not. I do not remember the Pagan’s calling it Christmas. I see no reason people cannot call December 25 any day they want, no one owns the name of a day or celebration.

Bottom line for me is that the Federal Government determined and made it a Religious holiday called Christmas, Therefore it is a Christmas tree until people petition the Government to change it to something else. Why people are offended is beyond me. As is trying to force any religion into the shadows to worship because it offends someone to see a cross, tree, Star of David etc. There are no symbols for Islam as that is considered Blasphemy. It is one day a year the law suits start which for me is a waste of time and my tax money tying up the court system and creating division of the people. My 2 cents as a Non-Christian

Robert E,
I know many of the Christmas symbols stem from Pagans. I am actually not a Christian. I am actually non-denominational. I actually follow some paganism and some Catholic. I also have many friends and family who are pagans.

That is a very excellent point, Joe. Even Obama recognizes it the correct way "Christmas Tree". I even saw how beautiful it was.

No, I seek equality for everyone.